Lean full throttle

[fleet man]

Ok, is that even more fuel than 5036 i started with? On 5036 it run so rich at idle so i had to change my oil. The picture is from map 5036, short ft take away 30 and it still running on rich 12,2 AFR. I changed to 5029 and its running really good with short ft only at 1 or 2 +/- normal driving but when i stamp on the gas it reads to lean, same with 5033. 5036 maybe is good at wot but way to rich at idle. If 5037 is even more rich i not think im even able to get the car running. Maybe i should try again with 5036 and go in to fuel modifier and take away max 30 at idle before i even start so it learn that when i drive and see how it drives on that map otherwise, what do you think?

my fuel psi at idle is 49 to 48 on a 58 psi system maybe a little hi at idle ?

[Mopar493]

Does it use a doughnut?
Or some type of gasket between the exhaust manifold, and exhaust pipe?

No doughnuts, i use Remflex manifold to heads and on the flangs between manifold and exhaust pipe. I checked the system with a smoke machine before i installed Pro flo 4 but could not find any leaks. If there was any leak should it not show lean at all rpm, not only when i hit the throttle? Normal driving its right on target and almost not add or take away any fuel.

[Mopar493]

my fuel psi at idle is 49 to 48 on a 58 psi system maybe a little hi at idle ?

Maybe but i have the pressure right on 58psi there with the vacuum reference unhooked, set after the pressure gauge on the regulator and from what i have read with the vacuum connected it should drop about 5 psi.

[fleet man]

watch my car run when i shut off engine at 2:10 no need to go more. also i have idle timing is 12 i found at any higher it would kick back when cranking to start.and my vacuum went to 15 to almost 16 i will post a video of the next time i go for a drive.

https://youtu.be/G44HjJsgRV4

[Mopar493]

not sure about that i used vacuum to chose a map and close to my cid second as i have watched from bite-me and 2700 case

my vacuum is 14 to 15 as it is learning i see 16 sometimes

Thats what i do when i choosed 5036, i know i had 18 hg/inch of hot idle vacuum with my carb setup checked with a gauge connected to manifold vacuum. On the Pro flo tablet i see about 14-15hg/inch at idle but for maximum vacuum it needs right amount of fuel and right timing, when its perfect you have highest amount of vacuum at idle. 5036 should be spot on for me but its not, not at idle anyway, the engine drowning in fuel at idle with that map. My engine must be really effective at idle or something, i had no chance to take it out for a drive with that map, i not wanted to dillute the oil even more. I loaded the 5036 map one more time when i was out with the car the last time but with the engine hot it not even want to start on that so i tried 5033 instead and the engine running good on that but same as the 5029 map it shows to lean when i hit on it.

[Mopar493]

watch my car run when i shut off engine at 2:10 no need to go more. also i have idle timing is 12 i found at any higher it would kick back when cranking to start.and my vacuum went to 15 to almost 16 i will post a video of the next time i go for a drive.

https://youtu.be/G44HjJsgRV4

Looks good. My engine likes timing at idle, i have it set at 18, with my stock distributor and carb i had it set at 18 and full vacuum brings it to 30 at idle, no kickback. I set the pro flo at 18 now and with the right amount of fuel from map 5029 or 5033 at idle it runs great and no kickback at start. Normal driving these maps working really great, it just at accelerate it shows to lean AFR 14-15, but no hesitate or stumble, just show to lean and short ft adding 30.

[BITE_ME]

No doughnuts, i use Remflex manifold to heads and on the flangs between manifold and exhaust pipe. I checked the system with a smoke machine before i installed Pro flo 4 but could not find any leaks. If there was any leak should it not show lean at all rpm, not only when i hit the throttle? Normal driving its right on target and almost not add or take away any fuel.

I don't like smoke.
I prefer bubbles.

Leaf blower, or shop vacuum duct taped to the pipe.
Use spray bottle of water with a little dish soap.
You will see the bubbles, or even a stream of small bubbles, at any leaks.

[fleet man]

I don't like smoke.
I prefer bubbles.

Leaf blower, or shop vacuum duct taped to the pipe.
Use spray bottle of water with a little dish soap.
You will see the bubbles, or even a stream of small bubbles, at any leaks.

if he is using a smoke machine for evap system it would be obvious.

[Mopar493]

if he is using a smoke machine for evap system it would be obvious.

Whats wrong with smoke, i have found many small leaks that way. More strange is if there was a leak, why should it only show up on accelerate and not at normal driving? If there is a leak it leak.

[BITE_ME]

When you put your hand on the end of a exhaust pipe of a running vehicle.
You will feel the pulses going in and out..... it's not just going out.

Remember in physics class how they taught you how basically everything follows "the path of least resistance".
Well.
All the gas pulses create a lot of Resistance......most of the exhaust gases is water. So it has mass.
If the leaks are at a point in the system, where it has less resistance ( a 3 foot section of pipe is going to have less resistance then a 4 foot section ) it will pulse in and out at the leak.......Pulsing in is what causes the issues.

How big of an exhaust leak will cause issues?
Any size is a leak.
The "location" of the leak can get you some really bad O2 results.....like if it's the O2 bung leaking. Expect some crazy AF numbers.

Back to the soap.

Most of us have dark colored exhaust systems.
The white bubbles are easier to see on a dark background.
Getting a smoke machine is a pain to find for most people.
At Home Depot. You can rent a electric leaf blower for free. You just have to put a full cost deposit down first.
And.
Your going to be grabbing the exhaust system, to simulate driving down the road.
Might as well get your hands soapy before you wash them.

How do you find a air leak in a tire mounted to a rim?

Anyway.

There is no true way of establishing if a leak will effect the idle, cruise, or wide open throttle.
Because the math will make your head explode, and getting the test equipment to get the variables is in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

A tool is a tool.
If you have good results with smoke.
Then use it.

[Monkeysgarage]

I would check your fuel filters are in the right way and not clogged. Quick simple test. And maybe replace

[Mopar493]

When you put your hand on the end of a exhaust pipe of a running vehicle.
You will feel the pulses going in and out..... it's not just going out.

Remember in physics class how they taught you how basically everything follows "the path of least resistance".
Well.
All the gas pulses create a lot of Resistance......most of the exhaust gases is water. So it has mass.
If the leaks are at a point in the system, where it has less resistance ( a 3 foot section of pipe is going to have less resistance then a 4 foot section ) it will pulse in and out at the leak.......Pulsing in is what causes the issues.

How big of an exhaust leak will cause issues?
Any size is a leak.
The "location" of the leak can get you some really bad O2 results.....like if it's the O2 bung leaking. Expect some crazy AF numbers.

Back to the soap.

Most of us have dark colored exhaust systems.
The white bubbles are easier to see on a dark background.
Getting a smoke machine is a pain to find for most people.
At Home Depot. You can rent a electric leaf blower for free. You just have to put a full cost deposit down first.
And.
Your going to be grabbing the exhaust system, to simulate driving down the road.
Might as well get your hands soapy before you wash them.

How do you find a air leak in a tire mounted to a rim?

Anyway.

There is no true way of establishing if a leak will effect the idle, cruise, or wide open throttle.
Because the math will make your head explode, and getting the test equipment to get the variables is in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

A tool is a tool.
If you have good results with smoke.
Then use it.

Thanks for info! I just not think there is a leak problem, i have a AFR meter in the other pipe and get the same values on that. I have not found any leaks with smoke and the system is new built by my self and im very meticulous with everything. The engine is pretty new build also with only about 1500 miles on it and everything is broken in just perfect, the engine is built by myself to and also very meticulous done. Efi and computer tuning is all new to me so im a bit lost here, if it was a carb i just corrected it, but with this im not sure wats going on. If there was a leak and the system in that case try to add fuel it would be to rich and dilute oil and the engine stumble and so on but the oil not smell anything other than oil and no hesitate or stumble either wich also should be the case with to lean?

[Mopar493]

I would check your fuel filters are in the right way and not clogged. Quick simple test. And maybe replace

Thanks for answer! The whole fuel delivery system is new and checked, new tank, new pump, new lines and filters, new regulator. If there was a delivery problem the engine would have hesitate or stumbled on its nose i belive. I think the system is not giving enough in acc area. I have a AFR in the other pipe to showing the same AFR so if there is a leak i must have exactly same one in both pipes.

[BITE_ME]

Thanks for info! I just not think there is a leak problem, i have a AFR meter in the other pipe and get the same values on that. I have not found any leaks with smoke and the system is new built by my self and im very meticulous with everything. The engine is pretty new build also with only about 1500 miles on it and everything is broken in just perfect, the engine is built by myself to and also very meticulous done. Efi and computer tuning is all new to me so im a bit lost here, if it was a carb i just corrected it, but with this im not sure wats going on. If there was a leak and the system in that case try to add fuel it would be to rich and dilute oil and the engine stumble and so on but the oil not smell anything other than oil and no hesitate or stumble either wich also should be the case with to lean?

Tuning a Edelbrock EFI system is very easy......but some people seam to over think about it.

What I'm trying to say is:

All the Calibration maps come from actual running motors.......Download the Edelbrock catalog. Go to the Camshaft section. Most of the 155 maps used these particular camshafts as the base for the Calibrations.

In the older systems. Edelbrock actually gave you the basic information for each Calibration....... compression ratio, camshaft used, heads used, etc.
From there you would "Globally" adjust the fuel based on how your motors "volumetric efficiency" compared to the "build motor" used .......lower compression, no headers. Then take fuel out Globally do to having a less efficient motor.

Fast forward to today:

With "Self Learning Systems" the ECU can basically take a Calibration map and modify it to the motor as needed......some of the adjustments in the App are for you to help the system to learn faster.

Now, some motors are inherently more efficient then others ( Ford 302 vs Chevy 305 ). So even with the same compression ratio, and same camshaft specifications. They will have different fueling requirements.

Better example:

Say 2 people build identical vehicles, and they both run great.
But one is race car, and the other is driven only to the grocery store.
If they switched vehicles. They would both notice that there is a slight difference in how the motors are running. Do to one learning mainly at low RPM's, and the other at higher RPM's.

My point is:

With Edelbrocks newest systems. You must have a 100% perfectly running motor, exhaust, fuel, transmission for the system to learn properly ( I'm not saying your motor is not right. I'm posting for the general public that reads this ).

And.

It needs to learn ( example: if all you ever drive on is flat roads. You need to drive up some hills. ) all situations.

The crux ( difficult problem ) is understanding how the IAT ( intake air temperature ), MAP ( Manifold Air Pressure ), and TPS interact with each other......once you know that the vacuum referenced fuel pressure, and water temperature work right ( like no over heating, or fuel starvation at higher RPM's ). You can just ignore their readings.

I like Wikipedia's information on the IAT, MAP, and TPS sensors if you need more information....they some times have it in different languages, and they always have links to even more information.

So.
Once you get a understanding of the 3 main sensors ( RPM is basically universal known...so actually 4 sensors ).
Then you can go through the App, and touch the "?" of the different pages, to get a understanding of how the system uses the sensors at Idle, Cruise, and WOT/Acceleration.......example: on the "Air Fuel Ratios" page. Idle = Is active when TPS is less then 2, and engine speed is less then 1400 RPM.

My point is:

When switching from a "carburetor tuning", to "EFI tuning" it is like night, and day.

The fuel ratio, and ignition timing can be substantial different.

But. With a good Calibration map, and a understanding of the sensors. You can tune a motor in dramatically way less time then most other EFI systems.....and you don't need a PC with a billion different settings to get it to work.

[Mopar493]

Tuning a Edelbrock EFI system is very easy......but some people seam to over think about it.

What I'm trying to say is:

All the Calibration maps come from actual running motors.......Download the Edelbrock catalog. Go to the Camshaft section. Most of the 155 maps used these particular camshafts as the base for the Calibrations.

In the older systems. Edelbrock actually gave you the basic information for each Calibration....... compression ratio, camshaft used, heads used, etc.
From there you would "Globally" adjust the fuel based on how your motors "volumetric efficiency" compared to the "build motor" used .......lower compression, no headers. Then take fuel out Globally do to having a less efficient motor.

Fast forward to today:

With "Self Learning Systems" the ECU can basically take a Calibration map and modify it to the motor as needed......some of the adjustments in the App are for you to help the system to learn faster.

Now, some motors are inherently more efficient then others ( Ford 302 vs Chevy 305 ). So even with the same compression ratio, and same camshaft specifications. They will have different fueling requirements.

Better example:

Say 2 people build identical vehicles, and they both run great.
But one is race car, and the other is driven only to the grocery store.
If they switched vehicles. They would both notice that there is a slight difference in how the motors are running. Do to one learning mainly at low RPM's, and the other at higher RPM's.

My point is:

With Edelbrocks newest systems. You must have a 100% perfectly running motor, exhaust, fuel, transmission for the system to learn properly ( I'm not saying your motor is not right. I'm posting for the general public that reads this ).

And.

It needs to learn ( example: if all you ever drive on is flat roads. You need to drive up some hills. ) all situations.

The crux ( difficult problem ) is understanding how the IAT ( intake air temperature ), MAP ( Manifold Air Pressure ), and TPS interact with each other......once you know that the vacuum referenced fuel pressure, and water temperature work right ( like no over heating, or fuel starvation at higher RPM's ). You can just ignore their readings.

I like Wikipedia's information on the IAT, MAP, and TPS sensors if you need more information....they some times have it in different languages, and they always have links to even more information.

So.
Once you get a understanding of the 3 main sensors ( RPM is basically universal known...so actually 4 sensors ).
Then you can go through the App, and touch the "?" of the different pages, to get a understanding of how the system uses the sensors at Idle, Cruise, and WOT/Acceleration.......example: on the "Air Fuel Ratios" page. Idle = Is active when TPS is less then 2, and engine speed is less then 1400 RPM.

My point is:

When switching from a "carburetor tuning", to "EFI tuning" it is like night, and day.

The fuel ratio, and ignition timing can be substantial different.

But. With a good Calibration map, and a understanding of the sensors. You can tune a motor in dramatically way less time then most other EFI systems.....and you don't need a PC with a billion different settings to get it to work.

I will try to load up a video soon, i recorded todays driving with map 5037 suggested by fleet man. I think i know the problem now, when i accelerate my fuel pressure drops to almost 20 psi. The question is why, its a Walbro dcss 39/50 pump 400 lph, that should keep up. Im running AN 8 hoses feed and return, 10 micron filter and a Holley 12-880 regulator, i tried to drive without the fuel cap but same. I have the pump wired as the instruction say with a 40 amp Bosch style relay and 10 gauge wires to the pump.