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351W Pro Flo 4 distributor shaft diameter out of spec?

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  • 2700 Cast
    replied
    This thread is closed.

    We sell thousands of PF4 kits in many engine sizes.
    We DO NOT have a distributor issue.
    The warranty return #'s, i can count on one hand.

    You may not like the appearance, but they are built correct & tested by our R & D Dept.

    Leave a comment:


  • BITE_ME
    replied
    The product is designed and built right . Your just mad because you can't easy modify it.
    I'm just going to ignore you too.
    I feel sorry for the people's vehicles you 2 work on.

    Leave a comment:


  • 408foureye
    replied
    This is a pointless waste of time. I know you guys represent Edelbrock, their cooperate decisions and support their opinions. Im not on here to cause any issues and merely tried to get some advice on how to fix my distributor issues. I was sold a defectively manufactured part, which I wont use as supplied. I fixed the issue on my own dime and would like to stop arguing. I don't appreciate being told my way is wrong and your way is absolutely correct. I'm an ASE Ford mechanic with 20 years of experience. All I build is Fords and I know them well. Im used to being sold aftermarket parts that don't meet OEM fit and function. I have a lot of money tied up in my engine and wont compromise when it comes to what goes into it. The Edelbrock Pro Flo4 system is a great product but the distributor is JUNK. I'm just being honest. I would post all the supporting evidence if I were able to but this forum wont allow it.

    So thank you for your efforts and opinions but I will just stick to what I feel is appropriate for my needs and standards.

    Leave a comment:


  • My427stang
    replied
    Originally posted by BITE_ME View Post
    Your posting to much misinformation again. I'll just putt you on the ignore list to make my life easier.
    If that is what helps you deal with life, please do. There is zero misinformation there and real sources, along with an attempt to offer an olive branch with some respect for your experience. If you don't respect mine, then why on earth would I care if you ignored me?

    Leave a comment:


  • BITE_ME
    replied
    Your posting to much misinformation again. I'll just putt you on the ignore list to make my life easier.

    Leave a comment:


  • My427stang
    replied
    I don't NEED to do anything because i do this regularly and know the difference between a flat rate flier (what I did as a Ford mechanic over 30 years ago) and an engine builder that gets paid to blueprint not copy a part because it "should be good, (what I do now). This is a part of blueprinting, and blueprinting is not matching an unmeasured part. We aren't building 170 hp 360s here

    But never say never....I know you said Factory Manual and I know you said the ones "you have" here's a Ford reference for you

    https://performanceparts.ford.com/do...BCDEFGHJKL.pdf

    Here's another

    https://performanceparts.ford.com/do...stallation.pdf

    I'd have to look through old books to see what the factory gear replacement procedure was, it's been a LONG time but Ford wasn't one for leaving numbers off

    Also realize, a set of calipers is all you need to do it right and no normal machining of the block changes those distances...and then we agree...everything else you said was picture perfect and insightful

    There is some other very good info in those instructions too

    PLEASE don't get me wrong, I respect you have a reputation here and I mean this sincerely, I hope I can learn about some of the quirks of the Edelbrock system from guys like you. It will save me some time learning from someone who has paved the way, and when I can, I will share what I have learned, but your advice in this case is not without some room for error. Again though, I hear you know your stuff about this system and as I understand, you are an asset to this place and glad to see you are back.

    Measure always = never wrong...never measure = maybe wrong
    Last edited by My427stang; 09-23-2020, 08:54 PM.

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  • BITE_ME
    replied
    Edelbrock does not sell rebuilt distributors.
    So you should be contacting the company that rebuilt the out of specification distributor, not Edelbrock.

    The way how I post on replacing a gear is 100% accurate.
    Your way is if the distributor has no gear ( no reference point to the end of the distributor shaft ), and will have errors do to the fact it's impossible for the average person to measure it accurately.

    PS. No where in any Ford Factory Shop Manual I have. Does it say to measure distributor gear location, before installation. So you really need to contact Ford and get them to change their distributor install procedure.

    Leave a comment:


  • My427stang
    replied
    BITE ME, a very good write up, but in the same spirit of teaching people watching as you mentioned, there are a couple of comments

    1 - A person is flirting with disaster if you only match gear depth to the existing gear on an aftermarket (or rebuilt distributor) You may be OK with one that was run already, but there is a measurement, an actual number and reference point, and it should be followed. Of course you can measure yourself if you have the tools as well.

    I have seen almost EVERY rebuilt distributor to be wrong, whether bad or just close enough on the short side, and probably 1 in 4 from MSD and Mallory. (In Edelbrock's defense, whoever made the one for my FE it was spot-on).. It is far better to use the proper procedures to locate a gear.

    If it is slightly short, not a big deal, but if the gear is deep, the hold down clamp forces the body into the recess in the block ad tries to jam the bottom surface of the gear into the pad on the block and the only thing that can give is the roll pin. Happens all the time with gears put on incorrectly. In fact, I would call a deep gear the number one reason roll pins fail, not oil pump resistance. This would be my main point and the others below are only bench racing and technique.

    2 - You have given a perfect explanation of a melonized iron gear, but cores are not the same and success on one does not mean success on all. In fact, one company's base metal can be different. Melonizing is really a form of nitriding, and it can work, as a guy who has billet (and cast iron cores) coming here weekly, I am not afraid of it if it's my only option, but to quote Mike Jones on Speedtalk, "nobody is willing to commit to compatibility with a steel core"

    If I were to rank in terms of universal compatibility I would go 1 - Composite, 2 - Bronze, 3 - Melonized (I flop between 2 and 3) and nothing else, from DURABILITY, 1- (Steel or iron to match your core), 2 - Melonized, 3 - Bronze, 4 - Composite. Nobody likes or wants to like the composite, so melonizing the gear makes for a good trade off for both aftermarket and OEM warranty, as well as aftermarket compatibility. That's why, certainly not because it is perfect. In fact, I can't even find agreement if melonized gears are steel or iron, most guys call them steel but the companies making them don't

    3 - I agree the pin does the driving not the press fit, 100%, but you have to have zero clearance or an interference fit or there will be movement at the pin which could make it fail eventually. To be fair, I have never tried fitting a .001 loose gear as the OP discussed, but I wouldn't want any movement at the shaft OD/gear ID. I would never put it together that way, so uncertain, but seems like it would be like a loose wheel with loading on one side, especially as it grew with heat

    4 - May be a bit of word police here, because you nailed the bottom face and mating the block being critical, but the location of a Ford gear does not set any free play in the distributor. Ford uses a collar for free play, the term you were describing is oil clearance. The collar sets free play, and the gear location sets oil clearance from the block surface. The two together allow the gear to have an oil film under the gear. So I apologize for being anal, because I hate when guys do that, but I am a micrometer and bore-gauge wielding geek, and you aren't setting free play, you are setting oil clearance with that dimension

    Back to the OP, I am not afraid of the melonized gear if in the right location, however, if the cam manufacturer was, it would be gone. If that was the case, and the OP's shaft measurement is correct, and I couldn't find a .530 gear, (or if the .531 gear didn't run small) I would consider talking to a machinist to convert a .500. However, I do think this is a lot of GREAT academic talk, without a ton of worry

    fleet man - sorry to hear that you feel anyone is misleading anyone. Some of us are learning how Edelbrock built and tunes their kits, but are not new in established engine building procedures and techniques. These things are the difference between crossing your fingers and having something perform over a long period of time, in the manner you built it for. If an engine builder at any level isn't checking compatibility and dimensions across the entire build, and verifying parts supplier claims when appropriate......run away.

    Here is some praise to Edelbrock BTW - I have a 462 FE, approx 580 HP, in the planning stages to go to Hong Kong as a combination hotel show car and hot rod. Both Inglese and Borla 8-stack TB and Weber look-a-like systems are far less documented and have no forum like this. Nothing against either, I can call Jim Inglese and talk directly any day of the week, but it has been difficult to get solid answers on dimensions and hood clearance for a 7000 dollar induction system and 1200 dollar ECM, so kudos to Edelbrock for their documentation and this 24-hr forum.

    The Edelbrock system may not have the flexibility of the fancy ones, but they do have very good support for a company that has to answer questions around the world.
    Last edited by My427stang; 09-23-2020, 07:37 AM.

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  • fleet man
    replied
    i'm glad to see he is back some of these gents think they know all there is on what works and what doesn't and have been miss leading others

    Leave a comment:


  • ddsmith
    replied
    Wait a second, I thought BITEME had left the building.

    Leave a comment:


  • 2700 Cast
    replied
    Originally posted by 408foureye View Post
    Trying to get through to the tech dept. Getting ahold of anyone is virtually impossible. The phone menu sucks and all you get is put on permanent hold.
    You can email your photos to [email protected]

    Calling into the TechLine gets priority 800-416-8628

    Leave a comment:


  • BITE_ME
    replied
    Originally posted by 408foureye View Post
    Please don't tell me the pin alone is supposed to keep the gear in place and withstand the twisting forces of driving the oil pump. You must have at least a decent press fit to hold that gear - every single functioning SBF distributor I've come across has the gear pressed on with at least .001" interference fit. There's no way a tiny .125" roll pin alone will reliably do the job... not for long at least.
    Yes. The roll pin 100% holds the gear on. Seriously this is 100% none debatable in any way.

    Leave a comment:


  • BITE_ME
    replied
    1/8" is the factory size roll pin For performance applications you drill it out to use a 3/16" roll pin. As it is the device used to hold the gear on to the shaft....more later.
    The pressing of the gear to the shaft, is just to hold it, so you can drill the hole.
    Slip fit gears are put in a jig to hold the gear in the proper location, so they don't move when drilled at the factory.

    Back to the roll pins:
    Ford and other manufacture's have switched to a different "style" of roll pin used to hold the gear in place.
    It used to be a long rectangle, where the edges butted together....1 layer thick.
    But with the use of higher volume oil pumps, and some just randomly breaking. The pin is now around 3 layers of rolled sheet metal.....almost making it a solid pin.

    So.
    If you really need to change the gear. ( you got to remember that people in other countries read these posts, and most don't have experience in doing certain types of work. Hence why some of my posts are long, and detailed ).
    Mark on the shaft where the gear is closest to the end of the shaft. Also measure, and wright down this dimension with a magic marker on the distributors body.
    This will give you the location to place the new gear on the shaft.

    Now draw a line from one of the holes, up the body of the gear, and up the shaft......this line is in case you find out the work to be done is harder then you thought, and you just want to put the gear back on, and call it a day.

    Next you punch out the roll pin....use a punch made for this. Don't use some thing pointed like a nail. It will just get stuck in the roll pin. The tool needs a blunt end.

    If the gear slides off. Nice.
    If it doesn't slide off. Then use a 2 prong gear puller to pull it off.

    Next you measure the shaft diameter. This is done on the section of the shaft that the gear is installed at ... basically measure 90 degrees away from the roll pin holes of the shaft.

    Now you can order a new gear...0.467", 0.500", or 0.531" is basically what Ford gears come in.

    When you have the gear, you will notice that some have 1 guide hole, and some don't have any guide holes. That's because Ford's gears get randomly installed on the shaft....it's all about end play measurements, and where the bottom of the gear rests on the shaft....that's why you mark the shaft, and measure the location of the gears bottom face ( not the gear part.. you do the gear face....the part of the gear that could touch the block ).

    If the gear fits tightly. Then you need to press the gear on.
    Take the cap and rotor off. Put the shaft part that holds the rotor on,, on to a block of wood.....the gear end of the distributor should be pointed up.
    Use a deep socket, and rubber mallet....other options: Drill press, C-Clamp, jacked up rear/front bumper.....to press the gear on.

    The one‚Äčone part you have to be carful with. Is you can't reuse the hole that was drilled for the other gear.
    So you drill the new roll pin hole 90 degrees from the old one.....you mark the new gear where your going to be drilling....if it doesn't have a guide hole.
    this paragraph should be above the last paragraph. But I haven't learned to cut and paste with this new tablet I bought a couple of weeks ago.

    Now you drill a 1/8" hole through the guide hole, the shaft, and through the other side of the gear...you really need a drill press, and some blocks of wood to hold the distributor when doing this.
    Double check to make sure the gear did not move. Then install the guide pin.

    If the gear did not press fit on to the shaft, or you feel that the gear is going to move during the drilling process. Then use a center punch to raise up a little metal of the shaft, till the friction holds the gear in place so you can drill....if the gear doesn't have a guide hole. Then it's best to drill one on the gear first..

    So it's not really not that hard to install a different gear on Ford distributors. People just need to measure where the face of the old one rests at, before they take the old one off, and install the new one at the same distance.

    As for the Melonized gear. melon is defined as black. Ized is just a generic term to mean it had a process done to it.
    Lots of OEM motors use Melonized ( or recommend ) gears on billet camshaft motors.
    And just like how you need to retorque bolts on a motor. It's a common practice to inspect distributor gears after use, and installing a new gear with every camshaft change.

    Leave a comment:


  • 408foureye
    replied
    Please don't tell me the pin alone is supposed to keep the gear in place and withstand the twisting forces of driving the oil pump. You must have at least a decent press fit to hold that gear - every single functioning SBF distributor I've come across has the gear pressed on with at least .001" interference fit. There's no way a tiny .125" roll pin alone will reliably do the job... not for long at least.

    Leave a comment:


  • 408foureye
    replied
    Originally posted by BITE_ME View Post
    What size is the roll pin holding the gear on the Edelbrock distributor?
    1/8" .125"

    Leave a comment:

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