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Mopar 440 with 4150 style Pro Flo 4 and 727 .... Throttle linkage and kick down

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  • Jacbjacb
    replied
    Originally posted by 2700 Cast View Post

    I have talked with Senior EfI Program Manager.

    Response was: Edelbrock is not interested.

    Thank you.

    Maybe you should talk with cable makers , such as " Lokar "
    Thanks for that 2700 Cast

    I am disappointed with Edelbrock’s attitude towards its customers because they make an EFI Kit that says it is designed for the Chrysler ..... It makes Geometry correctors for the carburettors and obviously accepts that there is a Chrysler specific issue, yet they give their EFI Kit customers (including myself) no way of bolting everything together! Not the best service attitude when they have this part available and still fail to act, At a cynical level if they had made this part available, Edelbrock would have offered a service to their customers and made more money for Edelbrock.

    I guess we the customer vote with where we spend our dollar!

    Leave a comment:


  • 2700 Cast
    replied
    Originally posted by Jacbjacb View Post
    Hi Nate S

    I have done the work for myself and other Chrysler owners who purchase the Edelbrock Pro-Flo EFI / Throttle Body’s. Have a look at https://forums.edelbrock.com/forum/p...3711#post33711

    As the Edelbrock rep on this site would you kindly ask your Edelbrock contacts .



    I have talked with Senior EfI Program Manager.

    Response was: Edelbrock is not interested.

    Thank you.



    Maybe you should talk with cable makers , such as " Lokar "

    Leave a comment:


  • Jacbjacb
    replied
    Originally posted by 2700 Cast View Post
    Nate S. has left the building.
    Hi 2700 Cast

    Has Nate S "left the building" permanently ?

    If so can you action my request in post #54 above?

    Rgds

    Leave a comment:


  • 2700 Cast
    replied
    Nate S. has left the building.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jacbjacb
    replied
    Originally posted by Nate S View Post
    The bottom line is that you seem to be waiting for someone to hand you a bolt-on solution for your 727 kickdown. You may be new to the discussion but Edelbrock has sold countless Mopar kits and some how, some way, people with 727's have been able to figure something out. Pro-Flo 4 is the 4th generation Pro-Flo system. There are literally thousands of Pro-Flo EFI kits out there. No 727 specific linkage has ever been provided before in the previous 3 generations and yet end users figured out a solution. Have I personally set one of these up myself before? No but it's two levers and a cable. Aren't there bigger more complex hurdles than this?

    Between all the info you've dug up and research you've done, I find it hard to believe that you can't put together something that will work.
    Hi Nate S

    I have done the work for myself and other Chrysler owners who purchase the Edelbrock Pro-Flo EFI / Throttle Body’s. Have a look at https://forums.edelbrock.com/forum/p...3711#post33711

    As the Edelbrock rep on this site would you kindly ask your Edelbrock contacts to contact me and get this part made up for those that follow in my steps. I had my part 3D printed ... Edelbrock have the facility’s to make this part for cents .... it should be in their catalog and they should not be relying on end users like myself who purchase a dedicated kit to have to cobble something together .... this was not a simple task and I dare say that a lot of Chrysler owner did’t go to the trouble and now wonder why at best their Kickdown is poor or more likely their transmission failed prematurely.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nate S
    replied
    You can call it aggression - I'll just say that I'm being honest and that I don't pull any punches. We're all adults here - I'm used to being direct, straight forward and concise. Sorry if that rubs some the wrong way.

    The bottom line is that you seem to be waiting for someone to hand you a bolt-on solution for your 727 kickdown. You may be new to the discussion but Edelbrock has sold countless Mopar kits and some how, some way, people with 727's have been able to figure something out. Pro-Flo 4 is the 4th generation Pro-Flo system. There are literally thousands of Pro-Flo EFI kits out there. No 727 specific linkage has ever been provided before in the previous 3 generations and yet end users figured out a solution. Have I personally set one of these up myself before? No but it's two levers and a cable. Aren't there bigger more complex hurdles than this?

    Between all the info you've dug up and research you've done, I find it hard to believe that you can't put together something that will work. I keep pointing out the obvious that you'll need to just bite the bullet and figure something out on your own but you don't seem to want to accept that. We really don't need to keep rehashing the same info,pictures and drawings over and over. There was already another multi-page thread with the same topic with all the same info. You've done an excellent job of highlighting all the pertinent details of all the possible parts and pieces that might be used for this. The underlying response from everyone so far is that with a little work, they've made something work and I'm sure you will too. As they say, necessity is the mother of invention.

    PS - no one even noticed in the other thread that El Fuego made up own secondary throttle linkage because he wanted a 1:1 throttle ratio.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jacbjacb
    replied
    Originally posted by Nate S View Post
    You see 3 pictures of the throttle linkage side only and you're so sure that it doesn't work. Why would skidep mention using this setup if it doesn't work?

    Luck? So if something doesn't just drop on and work by pure luck, what do you do? Sell your car and buy a bicycle? Is there nothing adjustable on the cars you work on?

    I found the article where you pulled that lever picture from: https://www.hotrod.com/articles/the-...-down-linkage/

    Seems someone didn't have much luck and took matters into their own hands and built in some adjustability:


    Back to the article - it says throttle lever to TV lever ratio is 1:1. Does it take luck, trail and error or maybe just a tape measure to figure out how to come up with the desired 1:1 ratio? Some trial and error is possible but doesn't that apply to like everything you might do on a car? It certainly does with EFI tuning. You don't always know what an engine wants so you have to make a change and see how it reacts. Sometimes you may have to do the same thing for mechanical components.

    As best I can tell some kickdown cable manufacturers include a specific lever and other don't. The fact that in OEM form there were countless different configurations and lengths doesn't really matter when you convert to a cable arrangement that's adjustable.
    Nate S

    I will address the points as you made them:

    “Why would Skidep mention this setup if it doesn’t work”? If you looked at my post I said “working optimally” ..... working optimally and working are very different ..... like, it drives and it drives well. As you will see below I have spent some considerable time and a fair amount of money looking into the Edelbrock Pro Flo 4 and TF727 TV issue. What a shame that you the Edelbrock rep derides my comments while as a company and as an indervidual you apparantly do little real world research yourself.

    I am quite prepared to believe that Skidep’s setup works, if he happened through luck or time spent on adjustment, but understand that there are companies who have TV adapter geometry corrector patients designed for the TF727 and his setup is VERY different. You will note that in the post following my last post addressed to you, I asked Skidep to measure the TV cable travel and measure the TV Lever on his transmission, this he has kindly agreed to do. Does his setup follow the 1:1 rule? Hopefully we will know soon.

    As for “sell the car and buy a bicycle” .... not very far short of aggressive when you consider the time I have spent on this matter which in my opinion should have been addressed by Edelbrock engineers before the Pro Flo 4 Chrysler Big Block kit was put on the market. Failing that Nate S you might care to feed back to Edelbrock Engineers some of the work that customers of your “kits” are doing to make them work and not be quite so aggressive.... how does agression help any of us?

    The TV Lever arm with multiple mounting holes (you call adjustable) just shows what has to be done if by luck things don’t just snap together. Was Skidep lucky or did he also have to go down the adjustment route?

    Bouchillon Performance has done the work and have worked out how to make a TF727 geometry corrector for the Edelbrock #1481.The TV cable for the TF727 mounts in hole 14. Disregard any handwriting on the pattent.

    Skidep has effectively used the TV mounting hole on the bottom left ..... acording to BP's Pattent the correct TV mounting hole for a TF727 would be where the bottom right mounting hole is shown.

    I note with interest that the "New" 4150 style TB (#4150) has a GM TV mounting hole is a SIMILAR position.

    Maybe as a starting point only, for guys with a #3878 "Old Style" throttle Body and a TF727, the Edelbrock adapter #8026 might make a good starting point for the TV adjustment process. The adjustment would most lickely need to be done via the TV lever length on the transmission.
    Last edited by Nate S; 01-14-2020, 01:52 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nate S
    replied
    Originally posted by Jacbjacb
    Yes I am looking at this and I have to say that I very much doubt that the TV side of things is working optimaly in the above setup.
    You see 3 pictures of the throttle linkage side only and you're so sure that it doesn't work. Why would skidep mention using this setup if it doesn't work?

    It is possible that all is well, but it would be down to luck or a lot of trial and error which has not been comented on by Skidep.
    Luck? So if something doesn't just drop on and work by pure luck, what do you do? Sell your car and buy a bicycle? Is there nothing adjustable on the cars you work on?

    The issue is getting the correct amonunt of travel at the TF727's TV lever. As stated before there are very many different lengths of TV lever available of the TF7272 and it is vital to match the travel at the TV lever end with that of the throttle lever TV travel on the TB.
    I found the article where you pulled that lever picture from: https://www.hotrod.com/articles/the-...-down-linkage/

    Seems someone didn't have much luck and took matters into their own hands and built in some adjustability:
    727 kick down.jpg

    Back to the article - it says throttle lever to TV lever ratio is 1:1. Does it take luck, trail and error or maybe just a tape measure to figure out how to come up with the desired 1:1 ratio? Some trial and error is possible but doesn't that apply to like everything you might do on a car? It certainly does with EFI tuning. You don't always know what an engine wants so you have to make a change and see how it reacts. Sometimes you may have to do the same thing for mechanical components.

    As best I can tell some kickdown cable manufacturers include a specific lever and other don't. The fact that in OEM form there were countless different configurations and lengths doesn't really matter when you convert to a cable arrangement that's adjustable.



    Leave a comment:


  • skidep
    replied
    Hi Jacbjacb,

    I'll take the measurements next weekend at my garage.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jacbjacb
    replied
    Originally posted by skidep

    At last here are the pics of my setup.
    Skidep with the above setup, how much travel (in length) is there at the end of the TV cable (where it attaches to the TF727) when you go from Idle to full throttle? What is the TV Lever arm length that is mounted to your TF727 (centre to centre)?

    Leave a comment:


  • Jacbjacb
    replied
    Originally posted by Nate S View Post
    Oh you mean this thread could have ended 3 pages ago when skidep said he used this bracket in post #12? Jacbjacb, are you seeing this?
    Hi Nate S

    Yes I am looking at this and I have to say that I very much doubt that the TV side of things is working optimaly in the above setup. It is possible that all is well, but it would be down to luck or a lot of trial and error which has not been comented on by Skidep. The issue is getting the correct amonunt of travel at the TF727's TV lever. As stated before LINK there are very many different lengths of TV lever available of the TF7272 and it is vital to match the travel at the TV lever end with that of the throttle lever TV travel on the TB.

    From what I can work out Skidep is quite right to use the lower thrttle lover mounting hole ... since it very close to the Chrysler original.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nate S
    replied
    Oh you mean this thread could have ended 3 pages ago when skidep said he used this bracket in post #12? Jacbjacb, are you seeing this?

    Leave a comment:


  • skidep
    replied
    Originally posted by skidep View Post

    Yes I have the #35910 supplied Victor manifold and the Lokar KD-2727HT kickdown cable attached straight into the AR005, it has a provision for that. I'll try to take better pictures of it later. The AR002 is not so tall as AR005 meant for such as Performer RPM.
    At last here are the pics of my setup.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jacbjacb
    replied
    Originally posted by Jacbjacb View Post

    Derwud I also emailed Travis Johnson of Lokar who said the same to me “The bracket is on the back burner at the moment due to several other products coming down the line. I have no idea when it will be available”.
    Here is an interesting development:

    https://forums.edelbrock.com/forum/pro-flo-efi/pro-flo-4/32038-provide-input-for-a-new-lokar-throttle-bracket-for-pf4#post32038

    3D013582-885E-4F1C-9BB4-65D45AE8FE95.jpeg

    Leave a comment:


  • Jacbjacb
    replied
    Originally posted by Nate S View Post
    The only way #1481 can work with a cable is with the Bouchillon add on bracket because it puts the kick down attachment on the other side of the pivot.
    Correct:

    Lokar …….

    Lokar.jpg

    Bouchilion (BPE) 3350 ….

    bouchillonimg.jpg

    Leave a comment:

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