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Mopar 440 with 4150 style Pro Flo 4 and 727 .... Throttle linkage and kick down

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Jacbjacb View Post

    Good news ...... I guess the the 727 kickdown must have a required travel (cable of rod, no difference) to function correctly. This travel has to be matched by the throttle lever on the TB. I hope Lokar makes the bracket suitable for the 727 and the Pro Flo 4 (#35910) as fitted to the BB Chrysler 440.
    I talked to the Lokar people at SEMA last month and they said they were not currently working on any of these parts. Maybe they were wrong?

    As I stated Earlier in this thread, adapters to give Chrysler and Ford the proper “travel” are available for carbs from Edelbrock, unfortunately they were shortsighted and didn’t design the throttle body throttle lever to accept them. Yes you need proper travel on Chrysler not only for the trans but also for the accelerator pedal. If you use the same holes in the throttle lever that I did as seen in the picture I posted earlier it will be close enough to work with the 727 or 904 transmission.
    I hope I’m wrong but Most likely you will have to fabricate something to work.
    Last edited by jm73340; 12-04-2019, 05:30 PM.

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    • #32
      The more I look into to this matter the crazier it gets:

      I am in the proses of fitting the Edelbrock Pro Flo 4 (#35910) 4150 Style EFI. Even though this “kit” was designed by Edelbrock for the BB Mopar/727, it seems that a “Universal” style throttle body was used. The net result of this is that the TV Cable Geometry is not entirely correct for the Chrysler 727.

      Edelbrock do make a TV/Throttle cable bracket #8041 for the Pro Flo 4 but this does nothing to correct for the Chrysler geometry.

      Edelbrock do make geometry correctors for their range of carburettors to make them match the required Chrysler geometry (#1843 & #1481) but these adapters don't fit their universal throttle Body!

      Mr McCarthy Product Line Manager – Intake Manifolds at Edelbrock is aware of this issue.

      Lokar make a nice TV cable for the 727 (#XKD-2727HT) but they don’t yet have a bracket for the Pro Flo 4 TB.

      Bouillon Performance (BPE) make what might be considered the most comprehensive TV kit (#3350) for the 727 because it includes a new kickdown Lever arm, the length of this arm has been made to match the throw of the Chrysler Geometry adapter that is included in the kit. Unfortunately the adapter does not mount on the Edelbrock TB.

      According to one article I have read Chrysler used different length kickdown lever arms during the 727’s production run so any geometry corrector/adapter must be paired with the correct length kickdown lever arm. Another article stated that the travel at Carb’/TB should match the travel at the kickdown lever on a 1/1 basis.

      So I see the options as:

      1) Work out the number of degrees (arc) which is required for the 727 kickdown lever to correctly function, from idle to WOF. Measure the centre to centre length of my currently fitted kickdown lever and with a little bit of trigonometry calculate the required TV cable travel. I then adjust, possibly with the aid of a bracket, the throttle Lever travel at the Throttle Body TV Cable mounting point.

      2) Somehow I adapt the BPE geometry corrector to mount on the Edelbrock TB. Finding the (possibly offset) butterfly shaft centre line location might be difficult, especially if I don’t own a carburettor that is compatible with the BPE bracket. It would be nice to take measurements from it.

      3) Edelbrock makes a TV Cable geometry adjuster for the GM 2004R, 700R4, 4L60 transmissions (#8026) for the early Pro Flow 4 or a stud (#8018) for the later Pro Flo 4 TB. These do mount to the universal style TB. I could use the adapter/stud and then adjust the 727 kickdown lever arm length to provide me with the correct travel (arc).
      Last edited by Jacbjacb; 12-05-2019, 04:57 PM.

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      • #33
        Hi jm73340

        Do you know what travel you get on you TV cable at the Edelbrock Pro Flo 4 TB?

        Did you use the Bouchillon Performance 727 Kickdown lever that is part of their TV kit (#3350)?

        As you know Chrysler used many different Kickdown lever lengths and matching up what happens at the TB and the Kickdown lever is vital.

        How are you finding the 1/4 throttle changes? Evidently this is the hard part to get set up correctly. WOT not such an issue.

        1968-plymouth-valiant-tci-a727-street-fighter-kick-down-levers.jpg



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        • #34
          Forum members might be interested to see how BPE mount their 727 TV kit (#3350) to different Carburetors including the Edelbrock range. Here is a LINK.

          By way of example the Edelbrock 1481 and the BPE 3350 on an Edelbrock carb .... maybe we can adapt some of this to fit the Pro Flo TB?

          66E132B2-8ABC-4197-B933-6E6B660CB849.jpeg

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          • #35
            Here is the Edelbrock #8041 bracket and a Lokar #XKD-2727HT TV cable.

            This MAY work but it depends on which Kickdown lever is fitted to you 727. The length Of your lever MAY need to be adjusted!?

            1A300911-F940-435B-84DD-C6B4212A128B.jpeg

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            • #36
              JacbJacb, at the moment I can’t tell you the length of the kick down lever on my 727, if needed I will have to get under the car and measure. From what I remember while using the lower hole in the top portion of the throttle lever for the throttle and working the throttle by hand and looking down at the lever on the transmission, I had full travel of the transmission kick down lever either at or just slightly prior to full throttle on the throttle body. I fabricated the bracket to hold the kick down cable and adjusted the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts where I like them and all seems normal or as it was with the carb prior to the Pro Flo 4 install.

              I was using the Bouchillon kit as you have pictured above prior and I’m still using the cable portion of the kit.

              The cables in the picture above looks like they may work as you say, I didn’t go that route because I didn’t want to use Lokar cables.

              You may also have to modify your accelerator pedal depending upon the range of travel.

              luckily for “us” Chrysler guys, the auto transmission kick down is not as fussy as Fords AOD as I helped install a Pro Flo 3 in a friend’s Maverick and we had to fab brackets to adapt to the throttle lever to correct the geometry to get it to function correctly which I did not have to do with the 727.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by jm73340 View Post
                JacbJacb, at the moment I can’t tell you the length of the kick down lever on my 727, if needed I will have to get under the car and measure.
                Hi jm73340

                I actually asked: "Do you know what travel you get on you TV cable at the Edelbrock Pro Flo 4 Throttle Body"?

                My guess is 1 1/8" - 1 1/4" ..... I am also thinking of using the lower mounting hole of the TB bracket if it will give me that range of travel. My #35910 is on route so if this is difficult, I do understand. I am just trying to get the correct parts in place prior to my PF4 arriving in New Zealand ... shipping takes some time here!

                It is curious that I received the following email today from Edelbrock:

                From: salesforce.com On Behalf Of Edelbrock

                Re the Edelbrock #1843: The bolt hole spacing is the same on the most current model of the throttle body, but you will need to space the lower part of the 1481 with a shim to fit it properly.

                I believe that the latest version has the two holes in the lower portion of the throttle lever.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Jacbjacb


                  It is curious that I received the following email today from Edelbrock:

                  From: salesforce.com On Behalf Of Edelbrock

                  Re the Edelbrock #1843: The bolt hole spacing is the same on the most current model of the throttle body, but you will need to space the lower part of the 1481 with a shim to fit it properly.

                  I believe that the latest version has the two holes in the lower portion of the throttle lever.
                  This has been backed up by the second email from Edelbrock:

                  I believe I was misunderstood on the adaptor not working. It’s just that the fit is different from our carburettor, and the two EFI throttle bodies are also slightly different in the linkage layout.

                  So it will take some extra spacers to mount it.

                  THANKS,

                  Brent McCarthy
                  Manifold & Carburetor Product Line Manager
                  R&D Manifold Specialist
                  Edelbrock LLC
                  310-781-2222 ext 2815"

                  Personally I don't think there would be room inside the Edelbrock #8041 bracket to fit the Edelbrock #1481 and the BPE 3350 ...... but the dimensions would be correct if somebody made a flat plate version using the two adaptors to measure from.
                  Last edited by Jacbjacb; 12-06-2019, 11:02 PM.

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                  • #39
                    The #1481 is for a stock style kick down rod that gets pushed. It would not work with a cable arrangement that needs to be pulled. And no, it doesn't look like it would fit with a #8041.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Nate S View Post
                      The #1481 is for a stock style kick down rod that gets pushed. It would not work with a cable arrangement that needs to be pulled. And no, it doesn't look like it would fit with a #8041.
                      As I said .... I didn’t think there would be room inside the Edelbrock #8041 bracket to fit the Edelbrock #1481 and the BPE 3350 ...... but the dimensions would be correct if somebody made a flat plate geometry corrector using the two adaptors to take the dimensions from.

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                      • #41
                        Second sentence in your first post says you want to use a kick down cable. #1481 won't work with a cable. Wouldn't want someone reading this to buy a #1481 expecting it to work with a kick down cable.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Nate S View Post
                          Second sentence in your first post says you want to use a kick down cable. #1481 won't work with a cable. Wouldn't want someone reading this to buy a #1481 expecting it to work with a kick down cable.
                          Hi Nate S

                          The real issue here is about getting the geometry of the PF4 Throttle Body, throttle lever to match the Kickdown requirements of the Chrysler 727. It seems that this is possible with a little ingenuity by taking the dimensions taken from #1481 and the BPE3350 and making a flat plate geometry corrector.

                          It really would be nice if Edelbrock made a bolt on version of such an adapter/corrector and put it in their Mopar 440 PF4 Kit, since the bulk of 440 owners will have a 727. It should be noted that the BPE3350 kit does include a matched Kickdown lever that must be used on the 727 with their geometry corrector. Any 727 geometry corrector must consider the Kickdown lever length that is fitted.

                          Whilst #1481 might have been designed with a Kickdown rod in mind, it’s geometry is correct for a rod or cable ..... but it won’t fit inside Edelbrock bracket #8041

                          Nate S another option would be for Edelbrock to suggest setting the car up as per post 35 above AND telling PF4 users what length of 727 Kickdown lever works with this setup. See post 33 re the different Kickdown levers.

                          BPE sell a short style 727 Kickdown lever that matches their geometry corrector as BPE 3358
                          Last edited by Jacbjacb; 12-13-2019, 07:39 PM.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Jacbjacb View Post
                            Whilst #1481 might have been designed with a Kickdown rod in mind, it’s geometry is correct for a rod or cable
                            Not sure how that can be true when the kick down attachment point on a #1481 is on the same side of the pivot as the cable attachment. With a throttle cable pulling on the linkage, having the kick down on the same side of the pivot would be a push which only works with a rod, not a wire cable. Would be like pushing a wet noodle uphill.

                            The only way #1481 can work with a cable is with the Bouchillon add on bracket because it puts the kick down attachment on the other side of the pivot.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Nate S View Post
                              The only way #1481 can work with a cable is with the Bouchillon add on bracket because it puts the kick down attachment on the other side of the pivot.
                              Correct:

                              Lokar …….

                              Lokar.jpg

                              Bouchilion (BPE) 3350 ….

                              bouchillonimg.jpg

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Jacbjacb View Post

                                Derwud I also emailed Travis Johnson of Lokar who said the same to me “The bracket is on the back burner at the moment due to several other products coming down the line. I have no idea when it will be available”.
                                Here is an interesting development:

                                https://forums.edelbrock.com/forum/pro-flo-efi/pro-flo-4/32038-provide-input-for-a-new-lokar-throttle-bracket-for-pf4#post32038

                                3D013582-885E-4F1C-9BB4-65D45AE8FE95.jpeg

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